Comments on: 12 Steps: The Forgotten Quackery? http://www.saramayhew.com/blog/index.php/2009/09/12-steps-the-forgotten-quackery/ Sketchy-blog & ramblings from a geek-a-licious mangaka. Sun, 22 Aug 2010 00:46:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Sara E.M. http://www.saramayhew.com/blog/index.php/2009/09/12-steps-the-forgotten-quackery/comment-page-1/#comment-6483 Sara E.M. Thu, 12 Aug 2010 07:31:37 +0000 http://www.saramayhew.com/blog/?p=244#comment-6483 "How do you accurately survey the success of people in an anonymous program? This has proven difficult for scientists as well as the fellowships themselves." This is a common argument against the program's lack of proven efficacy and demonstrates a misunderstanding of what is involved in conducting a well run study. Anonymity is a key feature of double-blinded studies. Again, as I believe I mention in the post...or rather, it is meant to be the point of the post...that arguments like the ones you present aren't any different than the arguments used to try and defend any other pseudoscientific treatment--whether it be acupuncture, homeopathy, reiki, or faith healing (AA is simply a popular form of faith healing). These treatments simply do not have proven efficacy, lack plausibility, and do not follow any standards of evidence-based medicine. “How do you accurately survey the success of people in an anonymous program? This has proven difficult for scientists as well as the fellowships themselves.”

This is a common argument against the program’s lack of proven efficacy and demonstrates a misunderstanding of what is involved in conducting a well run study. Anonymity is a key feature of double-blinded studies.

Again, as I believe I mention in the post…or rather, it is meant to be the point of the post…that arguments like the ones you present aren’t any different than the arguments used to try and defend any other pseudoscientific treatment–whether it be acupuncture, homeopathy, reiki, or faith healing (AA is simply a popular form of faith healing). These treatments simply do not have proven efficacy, lack plausibility, and do not follow any standards of evidence-based medicine.

]]> By: Jeff S. http://www.saramayhew.com/blog/index.php/2009/09/12-steps-the-forgotten-quackery/comment-page-1/#comment-6482 Jeff S. Thu, 12 Aug 2010 07:06:47 +0000 http://www.saramayhew.com/blog/?p=244#comment-6482 I've reposted below the best explanation of the take it or leave it nature of spirituality in the rooms. It's a difficult hump to get over and I've found that religious fervor varies regionally. I've attended meetings all over the US and in 7 countries. The most "religious" by far were in the southern states of the US. I take what I want and leave the rest. It works for me but that's not evidence of anything other than my anecdotal success fighting addiction. You don't have to like the way the book is written, but your lack of true skepticism (investigation from properly conducted research and use of the scientific method) is a danger to people who may want/receive help from these programs. A bad skeptic is worse than a peddler of hokum, mainly due to the self righteousness. How many of the 12 step texts have you read thoroughly? Each program differs greatly in the description of the "spiritual" portion of the program. The NA and GA texts are vastly different from the AA text though the underlying steps are essentially the same. Additionally, the AA Big Book has not changed since the thirties; mainly due to tradition and continuity. Like Doug Stanhope says "Would you still be a Christian if they elected a new Jesus every 4 years?" How many meetings have you attended in various fellowships to conduct observational research? All fellowships have open meetings that anyone can attend. How do you accurately survey the success of people in an anonymous program? This has proven difficult for scientists as well as the fellowships themselves. I guess the bottom line is to do the work yourself and not just infer from internet posts what you think you know. Confirmation bias can bite a sloppy skeptic too. As promised: My name is ____________ and I'm an atheist. I am addressing this to the alcoholics who have had trouble with the religious overtones in the AA program. To those who do not accept the idea of a supernatural being, let me assert that it is always people who have strengthened me when I needed help. I have a deep belief in human morality. I believe that evil impulses can be subordinated by decent actions. AA brings out impulses for good, and this has tremendous force. In my opinion, this sum total of good actions is the "higher power." In the words of a Unitarian minister: "In a world that has lost, or is losing fast, any convincing concept of divine providence at work, of a personal God ordering the affairs of humanity, it is not necessary to assume that the only alternative to a human-cherishing universe is a hostile or satanic universe. There is the much more likely alternative of a neutral universe where people live, hammering out salvation without hope of heaven or dread of hell. People can find that life has value, not because a divine being so ordains, but because the achievements of good men and women, laboring together with love and self-respect, are self-validating and self-rewarding." I was not able to accept AA or the very real help it could give until I made a rationalistic interpretation of the program. I am still an atheist, but I am a grateful atheist. I don't want to change AA It works for me. I just want it to be effective in attracting rationalists. Their membership will help AA tremendously. I’ve reposted below the best explanation of the take it or leave it nature of spirituality in the rooms. It’s a difficult hump to get over and I’ve found that religious fervor varies regionally. I’ve attended meetings all over the US and in 7 countries. The most “religious” by far were in the southern states of the US. I take what I want and leave the rest. It works for me but that’s not evidence of anything other than my anecdotal success fighting addiction.
You don’t have to like the way the book is written, but your lack of true skepticism (investigation from properly conducted research and use of the scientific method) is a danger to people who may want/receive help from these programs. A bad skeptic is worse than a peddler of hokum, mainly due to the self righteousness. How many of the 12 step texts have you read thoroughly? Each program differs greatly in the description of the “spiritual” portion of the program. The NA and GA texts are vastly different from the AA text though the underlying steps are essentially the same. Additionally, the AA Big Book has not changed since the thirties; mainly due to tradition and continuity. Like Doug Stanhope says “Would you still be a Christian if they elected a new Jesus every 4 years?”
How many meetings have you attended in various fellowships to conduct observational research? All fellowships have open meetings that anyone can attend.
How do you accurately survey the success of people in an anonymous program? This has proven difficult for scientists as well as the fellowships themselves. I guess the bottom line is to do the work yourself and not just infer from internet posts what you think you know. Confirmation bias can bite a sloppy skeptic too.
As promised:

My name is ____________ and I’m an atheist.

I am addressing this to the alcoholics who have had trouble with the religious overtones in the AA program. To those who do not accept the idea of a supernatural being, let me assert that it is always people who have strengthened me when I needed help.

I have a deep belief in human morality. I believe that evil impulses can be subordinated by decent actions. AA brings out impulses for good, and this has tremendous force. In my opinion, this sum total of good actions is the “higher power.”

In the words of a Unitarian minister: “In a world that has lost, or is losing fast, any convincing concept of divine providence at work, of a personal God ordering the affairs of humanity, it is not necessary to assume that the only alternative to a human-cherishing universe is a hostile or satanic universe. There is the much more likely alternative of a neutral universe where people live, hammering out salvation without hope of heaven or dread of hell. People can find that life has value, not because a divine being so ordains, but because the achievements of good men and women, laboring together with love and self-respect, are self-validating and self-rewarding.”

I was not able to accept AA or the very real help it could give until I made a rationalistic interpretation of the program. I am still an atheist, but I am a grateful atheist.

I don’t want to change AA It works for me. I just want it to be effective in attracting rationalists. Their membership will help AA tremendously.

]]> By: Mike H. http://www.saramayhew.com/blog/index.php/2009/09/12-steps-the-forgotten-quackery/comment-page-1/#comment-6016 Mike H. Sat, 24 Apr 2010 01:52:30 +0000 http://www.saramayhew.com/blog/?p=244#comment-6016 AA is NOT the only way to get sober. In fact AA encourages people to try any means to acheive sobriety.But why are there so many meetings ? Why do the courts and treatment centers send so many people to AA? Why are there so many 12 step programs? Wasn't AA the FIRST 12 step program ? Why are there so many people that are dying from untreated cases of alcoholism? And why in the hell did they write a book on how they recovered from alcoholism? I can only assume that they wrote down precisely what they did to recover so that you could do what they did if you wanted to.But you can try other means if you like.In fact aren't there a bunch of books about alcoholism out there besides the "Big Book"? (for sale)AA's 12 steps are suggestive ONLY. If followed can enable the user to become happily and usefully whole. Is that so bad ? There is a bar against all information which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorrance, that bar is contempt prior to investigation.Though you may come to scoff. I hope you come to stay. AA is NOT the only way to get sober. In fact AA encourages people to try any means to acheive sobriety.But why are there so many meetings ? Why do the courts and treatment centers send so many people to AA? Why are there so many 12 step programs? Wasn’t AA the FIRST 12 step program ? Why are there so many people that are dying from untreated cases of alcoholism? And why in the hell did they write a book on how they recovered from alcoholism? I can only assume that they wrote down precisely what they did to recover so that you could do what they did if you wanted to.But you can try other means if you like.In fact aren’t there a bunch of books about alcoholism out there besides the “Big Book”? (for sale)AA’s 12 steps are suggestive ONLY. If followed can enable the user to become happily and usefully whole. Is that so bad ? There is a bar against all information which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorrance, that bar is contempt prior to investigation.Though you may come to scoff. I hope you come to stay.

]]> By: Sara E.M. http://www.saramayhew.com/blog/index.php/2009/09/12-steps-the-forgotten-quackery/comment-page-1/#comment-6011 Sara E.M. Fri, 23 Apr 2010 03:01:42 +0000 http://www.saramayhew.com/blog/?p=244#comment-6011 AA and other 12 step programs are controlled by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., the company that markets the programs and runs a business off of merchandise and the program support materials, the "Big Book" being just one publication that the corporation profits from. If you read my other post, <a href="http://www.saramayhew.com/blog/index.php/2010/02/efficacy-in-substance-abuse-treatment/" rel="nofollow">here</a>, you will find that it is clear in the Big Book that the higher power it speaks of is God. Regardless, a "higher power" is invoking the supernatural, even if it is directed towards a physical object. There is no need to rely on faith healing or supernatural nonsense for any medical disorder, including addiction to alcohol. AA spreads misinformation about addiction and its members are shielded from medical based information. The "evidence" you invoke are all based on anecdotes. Personal experience is not evidence, especially when AA rooms are filled with self-selected individuals--AA members will never hear about the vast number of people who recover from addiction without the dogma of AA or the members who leave and recover anyway, because those people aren't at meetings. The stories in the meetings are inquivalent to cheery-picking: you're only going to hear anecdotes about the programs success, never the huge amount of failures. This gives meeting attendees a warped perspective on the statistics: AA has a failure rate of over 90%, addiction to alcohol has a spontaneous remission rate of about 50%. It is a fallacy to claim that the program must have proven efficacy simply because it has been around a long time. Dr. Harriet Hall has an article here showing the medical based data on AA: <a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=490" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=490</a> AA and other 12 step programs are controlled by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., the company that markets the programs and runs a business off of merchandise and the program support materials, the “Big Book” being just one publication that the corporation profits from.

If you read my other post, here, you will find that it is clear in the Big Book that the higher power it speaks of is God. Regardless, a “higher power” is invoking the supernatural, even if it is directed towards a physical object. There is no need to rely on faith healing or supernatural nonsense for any medical disorder, including addiction to alcohol.

AA spreads misinformation about addiction and its members are shielded from medical based information. The “evidence” you invoke are all based on anecdotes. Personal experience is not evidence, especially when AA rooms are filled with self-selected individuals–AA members will never hear about the vast number of people who recover from addiction without the dogma of AA or the members who leave and recover anyway, because those people aren’t at meetings. The stories in the meetings are inquivalent to cheery-picking: you’re only going to hear anecdotes about the programs success, never the huge amount of failures. This gives meeting attendees a warped perspective on the statistics: AA has a failure rate of over 90%, addiction to alcohol has a spontaneous remission rate of about 50%.

It is a fallacy to claim that the program must have proven efficacy simply because it has been around a long time.

Dr. Harriet Hall has an article here showing the medical based data on AA: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=490

]]> By: JB http://www.saramayhew.com/blog/index.php/2009/09/12-steps-the-forgotten-quackery/comment-page-1/#comment-6010 JB Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:59:40 +0000 http://www.saramayhew.com/blog/?p=244#comment-6010 Its unfortunate that there are ppl like you out there that really have no clue what AA IS about. A monopoly, an industry, hardly...AA supports itself through donations, $1 per meeting, that hardly a profitable industry. It is not a religious movement, it asks its members to find a higher power, that can be anything. I met a woman once who said trees were her higher power. Hardly evangelical. My husband has been sober 8 years, no hospitals, no detox...just AA. This SOS group that you quote sounds like the real scam. AA doesn't care who you are, where you come from. You are not bullied into anything. This other blog you quoted is also grossly misinformed, AA stays out of politics and never lends its name to any political group or figure. It does not lobby Congress. AA does not preach that alcohol is evil, only that some people cannot handle it and cannot function with alcohol in their lives, it is trying to help those people. Of all other sober-programs, AA is the ONLY one that has endured throughout the generations, that in itself is proof of its success. The ONLY requirment to join AA is the desire to quit alcohol. Any alcoholic who is fooled into these other groups that teach you to drink responibility deserve the fate they will inevitably fall into. The alcoholic does not know and never will know how to drink responsibly. I have met dozens of people who tried sobriety their way and always went back to hard core life ruining drinking. They eventually come back to AA and that is how they stay sober, and happy, and healthy. Its unfortunate that there are ppl like you out there that really have no clue what AA IS about. A monopoly, an industry, hardly…AA supports itself through donations, $1 per meeting, that hardly a profitable industry. It is not a religious movement, it asks its members to find a higher power, that can be anything. I met a woman once who said trees were her higher power. Hardly evangelical. My husband has been sober 8 years, no hospitals, no detox…just AA. This SOS group that you quote sounds like the real scam. AA doesn’t care who you are, where you come from. You are not bullied into anything. This other blog you quoted is also grossly misinformed, AA stays out of politics and never lends its name to any political group or figure. It does not lobby Congress. AA does not preach that alcohol is evil, only that some people cannot handle it and cannot function with alcohol in their lives, it is trying to help those people. Of all other sober-programs, AA is the ONLY one that has endured throughout the generations, that in itself is proof of its success. The ONLY requirment to join AA is the desire to quit alcohol. Any alcoholic who is fooled into these other groups that teach you to drink responibility deserve the fate they will inevitably fall into. The alcoholic does not know and never will know how to drink responsibly. I have met dozens of people who tried sobriety their way and always went back to hard core life ruining drinking. They eventually come back to AA and that is how they stay sober, and happy, and healthy.

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