Comments on: 12 Steps: The Forgotten Quackery?

By: Jim M

Jim M — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:16:11 +0000

To Layla…I came in and out of AA because i didnt work the program…simply…i didn’t want it…the solution to OUR problems are ALWAYS very very simple…the reason it works is because…I SUFFER A MALADY AND THE ONLY SOLUTION IS A SPIRITUAL ONE…in the big book it states…AA is a spiritual program of ACTION…in other words just do it…1.Dont drink 2.Got meetings 3.get a sponsor 4. be grateful….and 5. Help another person who need it…thats it after 27 yrs of drinking and drugging and hell i do the 5 things suggested here by AAers and my life is beyond my wildest dreams…but for some just not drinking is as good as it gets…not me…but remember I DRINK…..WE DONT that why i keep coming…i wish you well in your endevours…

By: Jim M

Jim M — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:10:44 +0000

thanks for the laugh…this is some funny shit…i used to be just like you…i knew everything about anything…and the fact is I know nothing about AA until I get there and stay there…i could attempt to tell you about it but you’d be short changed…your ass has to be in the seat to EXPERIENCE the emotion…Now AA is a program of suggestion…like it is suggested you pull the rip cord if you jump…its no cult or anything of that sort and it is proven that it does work ask the millions of people who have successfully remained sober because of it…If you have a problem drinking check it out give it say 90 days if you dont feel better you’ll have a lot money to go get drunk with…WE are self supporting through OUR own contributions AA is not allied with any SECT,DENOMINATION,POLITICS OR ORGANIZATION we wish not to engage in controversy OUR PRIMARY PURPOSE IS TO HELP THE ALCOHOLIC WHO STILL SUFFERS….anything said prior to that fact is hear say,guesstamation,speculative….and sadly probably from an alcoholic who still suffers…so good luck buddy…you be ready when your ready…p.s. thanks for the laugh its always the smart ones who are to stupid to get this simple program.

By: Layla

Layla — Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:08:31 +0000

Sara, I couldn’t agree with you more! My husband (soon to be ex) is an alcohol abuser who has been in and out of AA. I have been to Al-anon and as I heard many say there, “that’s how the alcoholics are–they go in and out (of AA)”. I do not agree with all of the 12 steps, not because of the references to God or a higher power, but because ALCOHOLISM is a disease. So why would working the steps and turning their “defects”over to God “cure” them. Gee, wouldn’t it be nice if one were to have cancer that working a 12 step program would put the cancer into remission as long as they kept working the steps!? If alcoholism is a disease recognized by the AMA, then shouldn’t it be treated medically?? Even if you’d like to categorize it as a mental illness, still, there are medications for that. I like the concept of AA as a support group and a source of ideas and sharing with others with similar issues, but I’m sorry the 12 steps are a bunch of BS if you ask me. It’s sad that AA is the main (and in certain cases) the only option for alcoholics. How a Medical Doctor, whose belief is based on SCIENCE, will send patients to AA, a group whose belief is based on FAITH is completely beyond me. I am a woman of science. I am a registered nurse and I look at things like the the pathophysiology of the disease. There are, to put it into layman’s terms, genetic differences in the make up of an addict’s cells and metabolism. How will working the 12 steps change the chemical make up of a human being? In my opinion, non-medical 12 step programs and Alcoholism being termed a disease are complete contradictions.

By: a_guy

a_guy — Sat, 02 Apr 2011 03:52:27 +0000

I could not shake a compulsive behavior (addiction, whatever your word of choice is) until I left 12 step programs. Of course, this is anecdotal as well, but I’ll give a little background. For someone like me, who is naturally skeptical and an atheist, the 12 step program caused stress and guilt. You are told, basically, that if you do not do certain things then you are hopeless. You are also talked to about God. You can insert some concept like a tree or the group as your higher power, but really this makes the message of the program even more incoherent. The book also tells you all the characteristics you are supposed to have as an addict. The group generally reinforces all of this and, from my experience, is not filled with skeptically-minded people. The problem with the “take what works, leave the rest” philosophy for me is that once you take out the parts that aren’t ridiculous blanket statements or only sensible embedded within a traditional god concept, then the only thing left of any value is fellowship with people who understand your struggles. This is valuable, but it is a shame it is not easily accessible elsewhere. The stress comes in when you realize that the message is actually illogical and you feel like you must try to believe it and you are surrounded by people you care about and are a support system that all believe it and are encouraging you to work the program. I think 12 step programs would be useful for people who either already believe in a god or are very open to the idea. I was neither. I stopped going to the groups and my stress and guilt levels dropped and I naturally entered a stage of abstinence and then moderation with the behavior. Many 12 step folks will not want to believe this, but I am no longer an addict and still occassionally indulge. Their closed minds (and perhaps secret jealousy) will make them feel that what I have described is not possible, when it is not in general but maybe it is for them.

By: Sara E.M.

Sara E.M. — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:30:58 +0000

Colleen, you demonstrate what AA is actually good at: advertising itself as the only option. This is untrue. There are proper support groups like SOS, which don’t spew misinformation, guilt, and cult-like techniques. There are medical interventions like medication, which help people deal with quitting. And if anyone who comments here would bother to click any links I post, they’d find that no treatment at all actually has a the highest success rate. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=490

AA has the potential to serious damage peoples mental health. People think that just because someone has a substance use disorder that they can be treated with lower standards in care. Debunking AA is important because it is faith-healing garbage which, unlike magnets and homeopathy which are considered alternative to evidenced-based care, has successfully convinced the populace that it is the best and standard treatment. It is not, and is preventing people from getting better treatment and information about behavior disorders.

By: Colleen

Colleen — Tue, 15 Feb 2011 07:40:52 +0000

If it is “the most” effective treatment for something that is largely untreatable and poorly understood, I think it should be accepted and supported by the Skeptical community until another, presumably more science-based approach can be developed and proven. If I remember correctly, the efficacy rate for AA is around 20% which is not very good, but since a) nothing else is as effective and b) both the disease and the relief provided to some people by AA is is not very well understood, we should tread lightly since many people literally depend on it for their lives. It also has the advantage of being intellectually accessible, affordable and widely available. I would have more of an objection to the judeo-christian overtones in the literature, except that I really have never heard of anyone being talked out of atheism by a 12-step program. Atheists really are encouraged to have trees be their higher power or whatever, even expressly in the material which is pretty progressive for something developed in the thirties.
Debunking magnets or homeopathy is appropriate because they often keep people from getting real, effective treatment for diseases. Debunking AA is inappropriate because there is no more effective known alternative.

By: Doreen

Doreen — Fri, 29 Oct 2010 14:32:37 +0000

Thanks for the article, Sara. Most people who attend one or even a few AA meetings leave and do not return. My experience is that AA feels very cult-like. I attended on and off for 30 years because it was the only game in town but I could never really feel comfortable there. It felt like sitting in a fundagelical church to me. Thanks to the internet, I am now able to communicate with rational people who have had problems with addiction and are perfectly willing to skip all the God stuff, the powerlessness stuff (as well as all the smug, snarky stuff!)

By: dave m

dave m — Thu, 16 Sep 2010 23:20:41 +0000

GOD= Group Of Drunks
GOD= Good Orderly Direction
a higher power of your own understanding. nothing forced a program of suggestions.

By: Sara E.M.

Sara E.M. — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 07:31:37 +0000

“How do you accurately survey the success of people in an anonymous program? This has proven difficult for scientists as well as the fellowships themselves.”

This is a common argument against the program’s lack of proven efficacy and demonstrates a misunderstanding of what is involved in conducting a well run study. Anonymity is a key feature of double-blinded studies.

Again, as I believe I mention in the post…or rather, it is meant to be the point of the post…that arguments like the ones you present aren’t any different than the arguments used to try and defend any other pseudoscientific treatment–whether it be acupuncture, homeopathy, reiki, or faith healing (AA is simply a popular form of faith healing). These treatments simply do not have proven efficacy, lack plausibility, and do not follow any standards of evidence-based medicine.

By: Jeff S.

Jeff S. — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 07:06:47 +0000

I’ve reposted below the best explanation of the take it or leave it nature of spirituality in the rooms. It’s a difficult hump to get over and I’ve found that religious fervor varies regionally. I’ve attended meetings all over the US and in 7 countries. The most “religious” by far were in the southern states of the US. I take what I want and leave the rest. It works for me but that’s not evidence of anything other than my anecdotal success fighting addiction.
You don’t have to like the way the book is written, but your lack of true skepticism (investigation from properly conducted research and use of the scientific method) is a danger to people who may want/receive help from these programs. A bad skeptic is worse than a peddler of hokum, mainly due to the self righteousness. How many of the 12 step texts have you read thoroughly? Each program differs greatly in the description of the “spiritual” portion of the program. The NA and GA texts are vastly different from the AA text though the underlying steps are essentially the same. Additionally, the AA Big Book has not changed since the thirties; mainly due to tradition and continuity. Like Doug Stanhope says “Would you still be a Christian if they elected a new Jesus every 4 years?”
How many meetings have you attended in various fellowships to conduct observational research? All fellowships have open meetings that anyone can attend.
How do you accurately survey the success of people in an anonymous program? This has proven difficult for scientists as well as the fellowships themselves. I guess the bottom line is to do the work yourself and not just infer from internet posts what you think you know. Confirmation bias can bite a sloppy skeptic too.
As promised:

My name is ____________ and I’m an atheist.

I am addressing this to the alcoholics who have had trouble with the religious overtones in the AA program. To those who do not accept the idea of a supernatural being, let me assert that it is always people who have strengthened me when I needed help.

I have a deep belief in human morality. I believe that evil impulses can be subordinated by decent actions. AA brings out impulses for good, and this has tremendous force. In my opinion, this sum total of good actions is the “higher power.”

In the words of a Unitarian minister: “In a world that has lost, or is losing fast, any convincing concept of divine providence at work, of a personal God ordering the affairs of humanity, it is not necessary to assume that the only alternative to a human-cherishing universe is a hostile or satanic universe. There is the much more likely alternative of a neutral universe where people live, hammering out salvation without hope of heaven or dread of hell. People can find that life has value, not because a divine being so ordains, but because the achievements of good men and women, laboring together with love and self-respect, are self-validating and self-rewarding.”

I was not able to accept AA or the very real help it could give until I made a rationalistic interpretation of the program. I am still an atheist, but I am a grateful atheist.

I don’t want to change AA It works for me. I just want it to be effective in attracting rationalists. Their membership will help AA tremendously.